Zuko vs Roy Mustang (Avatar vs Fullmetal Alchemist)
“War does not determine who is right - only who is left.”
Zuko, the Crown Prince of the Fire Nation from Avatar.
Roy Mustang, the Flame Alchemist from Fullmetal Alchemist.
The flames of destruction and disgrace are ones that a mere cold breeze cannot quell, for to put them out once and for all, it takes a will to match the struggles they pose. It takes an aspiration strong enough to carry out a dream for a better life for both the people we love and the world around us.
In their battles, these two fire-wielding heroes have been pushed down and misguided many times, but they eventually managed to succeed at ensuring a better future despite all their struggles, maintaining their honor and pride all the way through.
But which of these two determined molders of flame will be able to triumph over the other? Will the prince of the Fire Nation turn Roy Mustang to ash, or will the Flame Alchemist scar Zuko with his fire? Let’s turn up the heat as we determine who would win a DEATH BATTLE!
Before we begin…
For this blog, we'll be looking at Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender, The Legend of Korra, and the ongoing comic book series, as they are confirmed canon to the original TV show by the series' creators. For Roy, we're covering his FMA manga and Brotherhood incarnations, as the manga is the main canon story, with Brotherhood adapting it more closely than the 2003 anime. As such, we will not cover that show as thoroughly; we will make mention of extra details from it here or there, but it will not be a major factor in the conclusion.
Background
Zuko
“I promised my uncle that I would restore the honor of the Fire Nation. And I will!”
Long ago, the four nations that represented the elements lived in peace and harmony; the Earth Kingdom, the Water Tribe, the Fire Nation and the Air Nomads, all protected by the Avatar. But when the world needed him most, the Avatar mysteriously vanished. With nothing standing in their way, the Fire Nation waged war on every kingdom in the name of conquest. Led by the iron-fisted Fire Lord Ozai, the Nation’s armies sought to destroy all that had opposed them, no matter the cost. But not every member of the Fire Nation saw this war in the same way he did; among those was his own son, Zuko. Due to his son’s opposition, Ozai resented Zuko for years, much preferring his more obedient daughter, Azula. The only person that gave Zuko love and affection was his mother, but even that would be stripped away, as she suddenly disappeared one day. Thankfully, he would not be alone forever, as his uncle Iroh began to accompany him frequently after the loss of his own son. Zuko and Iroh would form an incredibly close bond, Iroh acting as more of a father-figure than Ozai ever could.
One day, Zuko had finally had enough, and spoke out against his father’s cruel military tactics. Enraged, Ozai forced Zuko into an Agni Kai against himself, a one-on-one duel where one’s honor is on the line. Zuko refused to fight his own father despite their differences, and was thus permanently scarred for his defiance, both physically and mentally. Ozai stripped Zuko of his birthright and exiled him from the Fire Nation, declaring that if he could capture the Avatar, he could come home. This was a seemingly impossible task, but Zuko did everything in his power to regain his honor, and so spent the next two years with Iroh and a small band of henchmen on the hunt for the missing Avatar.
Venturing into the Southern Water Tribe, Zuko finally found what he was looking for when he saw the new Avatar, Aang, close by. Throughout the pursuit, however, Iroh’s guidance combined with a broader understanding of the world at large led Zuko to see his father, ergo the Fire Nation, for their wrongdoings over the years. Overtime, Zuko would realize that his fate wasn’t to fuel the Fire Nation’s war on the world as its ruler, but to assist the Avatar in bringing peace to the world once more. While it took some time to gain Team Avatar’s trust, Zuko would redeem himself by joining them in their mission to save the world, granting his wisdom of Firebending to Aang, as it was the final element he needed to learn to become the Avatar he was meant to be.
In the end, Aang used his elemental mastery to stop Fire Lord Ozai once and for all, ending the hundred-year war and leaving the succession of Fire Lord to fall to the once disgraced prince. Using what he had learned from both Aang and Iroh, Zuko worked for years to undo the damage the Fire Nation had done to the world, allowing the four nations to live in harmony once more.
Roy Mustang
“If you believe the possibility exists, then you should do whatever it takes.”
There are many tales told throughout history; some real, some not so much. Among those that seemed like fantasy were stories of men who could turn lead into gold. But in the country of Amestris, it was possible by all accounts. Within this culturally rich nation, the art of alchemy was practically commonplace, with the law of equivalent exchange followed as closely as possible. As part of the State Military, many masterful alchemists were enlisted to deal with Amestris’ more taxing operations. There was the Strong Arm Alchemist Alex Louis Armstrong, the Fullmetal Alchemist Edward Elric, and of course, the Flame Alchemist, Roy Mustang.
Born from a common Amestrian family and orphaned at a young age, Roy was brought up by his father’s sister Chris Mustang with the intention of making him into a fine young gentleman. Roy had other plans, however, as he became fascinated with the idea of alchemy, so he sought the wisdom of Bertholdt Hawkeye in hopes of making a difference for his country. However, faced with the increasing frequency of border wars, Roy enrolled in the State Military Academy, wanting to become a State Alchemist and protect the innocent lives who were caught in the crossfire of international struggles. During his time at the academy, Roy met Maes Hughes, both of whom would become good friends as they discussed their idealistic dreams for the future of the country.
After Bertholdt’s death, however, Roy was entrusted with his secret research notes currently in the possession of his daughter Riza under the condition that he look after her. Trusting Roy with her father’s knowledge after hearing about his ambitions, Riza revealed that his secret research was tattooed on her back. Deciphering the information, Roy mastered Hawkeye’s Flame Alchemy and went on to pass the State Alchemist certification exam with flying colors, earning the unique moniker “Flame Alchemist” and officially joining the State Alchemists as a Major.
Three years later, the Ishval Civil War had reached a turning point, prompting the Fuhrer King Bradley to send combat-oriented State Alchemists to the front lines to begin a full-blown extermination of the Ishvalans, Roy Mustang among those alchemists. Using his devastating Flame Alchemy, Roy laid waste to his enemies in the name of his country, earning him the title of “The Hero of Ishval.” This event changed Roy forever, as he was the bright-eyed idealistic young man no more, and set his sights on usurping Bradley to become the next Fuhrer, wanting to protect as many people below him as he can so that they may protect those below them and so on.
Whether it was guilt of the atrocities he had to commit or the newfound flame in his heart after the literal heat of battle, Roy Mustang was never the same after that day. But one thing stayed; his determination to change Amestris and restore it to its former glory. Even after the death of his comrade Maes and the rise of the horrific Homunculus led by the monstrous Father, Roy did everything in his power to protect the people he loved with the skills he was bestowed. Although he lost his sight upon being forced into the Gate of Truth, he did eventually learn Truth Alchemy, and used it to assist Edward Elric in defeating Father once and for all. Despite the hardships he faced, Mustang remained determined and dedicated to his cause to the very bitter end.
Equipment
Zuko
Dual Broadswords
When Zuko isn’t using his trademark Firebending, he often keeps two dao swords on him for close combat. Due to the Fire Nation being heavily based on China, it’s likely these swords are based on Shuangdao; two twin Chinese broadswords that have a wide blade and a curve in the middle, allowing for better cutting and thrusting motions. Zuko has shown to be quite skilled with swords in general, shown in his fight with Jet.
Blue Spirit Disguise
During his time as a fugitive after being branded as a traitor by Ozai, Zuko donned the persona of the Blue Spirit. While this particular mask/outfit doesn’t offer a significant boost in Zuko’s capabilities, it does cover his face from those recognizing him. Zuko also prefers to only use his swords while in this disguise.
Roy Mustang
Transmutation Gloves
Roy uses custom gloves made of “ignition cloth” to use his alchemy. The special cloth of the gloves makes it so when Roy rubs his fingers together it will produce a spark which he can then control with the transmutation circles on the gloves. It should be noted however that due to seeing the Truth, Roy does not need these to perform his alchemy, though it’s likely the way he’s best at. He’s also been shown to carry spare gloves as back up were his initial ones to be destroyed or made wet.
Abilities
Zuko
Combat Skill
Due to his training in the Fire Nation, Zuko is an experienced hand to hand and sword fighter. He has been able to defeat multiple Earth Nation Soldiers, and hold his own against other experienced sword fighters like Jet whilst also not even fighting with offensive intent. Zuko is also capable of mixing Firebending into his martial arts, improving his range and putting the opponent on the backfoot.
Firebending
One of the four elemental bending arts, Firebending allows its user to produce and control fire at will. Unlike the other elements, which require a source of said element, Firebending does not require any kind of source, as the user uses their inner chi to produce flames. With these flames at his disposal, Zuko can use it in a variety of different ways.
Combat
Fireball: The most basic ability a Firebender can use, Zuko creates a small sphere of fire and blasts it at his opponent.
Firestream: A common yet useful ability, Zuko can shoot streams of fire from their hands, fingertips and even legs in a kicking motion.
Fireblocking: Offense is the best defense here, as Zuko can create a small wave of fire to diffuse oncoming blasts of fire or other elements
Fireshield: Similar to the last technique, Zuko creates a shield of fire to protect him from oncoming attacks, or even damage outright, as seen when he used it to protect himself from his ship’s explosion, albeit he suffered several injuries.
Fire Daggers: By constructing his flames into the shape of small daggers, Zuko can wield them as if they were regular swords.
Ring of Flame: Zuko can create a small ring of fire to either block incoming attacks or throw it at his opponent.
Fire Whips: By extending his fire outwards, Zuko can create whips of fire for long/mid-range combat.
Tornado of Flames: Zuko combines different streams of flames to create a small twister of fire.
Fire Bomb: Thrusting the limb down, Zuko can create a miniature explosion of fire at the end of its arc.
Intertwined Fire Stream: An advanced technique, Zuko creates two fire streams that intertwine, creating a much more powerful attack in the process.
Jet Propulsion: By creating flames under his feet or hands, Zuko can propel himself forwards at high speeds or into the air for pseudo-flight.
Other Firebending Abilities
Fire Manipulation: While preferring to use his own flames, Zuko can manipulate other fire sources as well, such as increasing the intensity of flames and even snuff out other fire.
Heat Manipulation: Zuko can manipulate the heat in his own body, such as when he increased the heat in his hands to melt the ice surrounding him.
Lightning Redirection
Taught to him by his uncle Iroh for the sake of defeating his sister Azula, Zuko is capable of redirecting the flow of electricity through his body and then redirecting it outside of his body in a separate direction. This technique does require extreme concentration however, as messing it up can result in, while reduced, still devastating lightning damage to Zuko. It should also be worth noting that unlike Azula and Iroh, Zuko never showed capable of lightning bending itself.
Roy Mustang
Combat Skill
While Roy has never been confirmed to have received a specific form of martial arts training, he has received extensive training as part of Amestris’ powerful military force. Showing the skill needed to fight multiple enemies at once without any aid from allies or Alchemy, just using his bare hands.
Alchemy
Roy has an advanced understanding of the phenomenon known as Alchemy, the process of deconstruction and reconstruction. Roy does not know (or at least has not shown) too much Alchemy besides his traditional Flame Alchemy, but he is still shown to be knowledgeable about the process. With Alchemy, Roy is capable of doing things such as creating large stone walls for defense. And thanks to him seeing The Truth, he’s able to perform Alchemy with simple “clappy magic” and no traditional transmutation circle.
Flame Alchemy
Roy’s main form of attack is his unique flame alchemy, which seems a lot simpler than it really is. Roy doesn’t actually directly control the flame itself but rather the space around it. By manipulating the concentration and density of oxygen in the air, he can make pathways for the sparks he produces to follow and grow in. It’s because of this that Roy’s accuracy is so pinpoint as he can control exactly where the flames go and how strong they will be. They can be small enough to blow out your eyes, controlled enough to light only your limbs ablaze, or be huge enough to cover an entire courtyard. Though because it needs a spark to work, this alchemy is famously useless in rain or wet situations. This need of a spark also makes the Alchemy quite versatile however, as it can be kicked off by anything ranging from Roy’s primary flint covered gloves to a tiny flame from a simple lighter.
Feats
Zuko
Overall
Defeated Commander Zhao, matched Azula in combat, and fought on-par with Katara, Toph and non-Avatar State Aang.
Matched the skilled Jet in sword combat.
Successfully captured the Avatar after infiltrating the North Pole.
Taught Aang Firebending, which was crucial in becoming the Avatar he was always meant to be.
Cut ties with Ozai and assisted in his downfall.
After his father’s defeat, became the next Fire Lord and ushered in a new era of peace for the Fire Nation.
THE redemption arc of all time.
Power
Breaks through steel handcuffs with a single kick.
Could break through Katara’s Ice Prison after the sun rose.
Made another one with Azula
Comparable to base Aang, who stopped a wave of lava from flowing into a village. (1.3 kilotons of TNT)
Comparable to the base form of Avatar Roku, who could split massive chunks of earth to stop a lava flow. (2.4 kilotons of TNT)
Likely comparable to Toph, who was able to slow the sinking of Wan Shi Tong’s library. (1.2 to 18.1 kilotons of TNT)
Speed
Can keep up with Aang constantly flying around
Leaps in front of Katara just in time to intercept several fire blasts
Outruns several Earthbenders firing sharp rocks at him and Iroh
Was able to block a direct lightning strike from Ozai (Mach 756.94)
Also did this against Azula
Dodged Sokka’s IMMEASURABLE BOOMERANG ROY BROS WHAT IS THIS-
Durability
Using his flame shields, survived the explosion of the ship he was on, though he did still have injuries afterwards.
Was blasted out of a building by Aang, and got up shortly after.
Survives getting blasted into the air by Aang’s Waterbending
Survives being blown back by a shockwave made by Aang
I’m sensing a pattern here…
Using another flame shield, tanked a lightning blast from Azula.
Tanked a hit to the face with a flail that previously cracked stone.
Roy Mustang
Overall
Defeated Edward Elric, Lust, Envy, and in the 2003 Anime he defeated King Bradley
Played a devastating role in the war against Ishval
Was able to master the dangerous art that is Flame Alchemy
Became the President of Amestris and worked to rebuild the nation of Ishval
Had the most depressing scene in anime ever
Almost made all women in the Amestris government required to wear miniskirts
Power
Able to blast through a glacier of ice with repeated fire attacks
Could deal severe damage to Lust and overwhelm her regenerative abilities in their “fight”
His flames are strong enough to damage Edward Elric
Edward survived a point blank blast from Kimblee’s Demolition Alchemy that was enhanced by a Philosopher Stone. With a weaker Philosopher Stone, Kimblee could level an entire town (33.278 Kilotons)
Edward could also survive being right next to an explosion of energy released by an elder Father, with said explosion splitting clouds (377.18 Kilotons of TNT)
Edward can also damage his dad, Hohenheim, who is also capable of surviving attacks performed by Father’s more elder form
Could deal severe damage to Envy and overwhelm his regenerative abilities in their “fight”
This feels like a trend, really
His fire attacks could cover near an entire courtyard when being blasted at Father
AND THREATENED HIS MULTIVERSAL DURABILITY ZUKO BROS WHAT IS THIS-
Speed
Comparable to Edward Elric, who can dodge point blank gunfire
Could snap and blast Lust before Lust could manage to stab him
Able to somewhat keep up with King Bradley, who blitzed multiple soldiers in an instant (Mach 3.2-Mach 12.94)
Superior to numerous Ishvalan warrior monks, who could move in tandem with a Transmutation Circle that covered all of Amestris (Mach 111) Debatable, more context in Verdicts
Durability
Has survived Riza Hawkeye basically kicking his pride in the balls a countless number of times
Has endured being stabbed through the gut, as well as the pain involved in searing shut the wound
Comparable to Edward Elric, who survived point blank attacks from Kimblee and Father as mentioned previously
Edward’s father Hohenheim can also endure attacks from Father
Endured being stabbed in both hands by King Bradley
Weaknesses
Zuko
Like the other elements, Firebending is not without its flaws. Extremely cold temperatures or the heavy presence of elements that counter fire, like a rainstorm or heavy winds, significantly reduces Zuko’s ability to bend. Additionally, a Firebender’s ability to bring out its full potential is determined by their drive, or their literal “inner fire.” As such, if Zuko starts to lose confidence in himself, his flames can actually become weaker as a result. Also, while Zuko eventually grew out of this behavior in his older years, he had been shown to be impulsive and reckless in battle, even when he was fighting for the side of good, leaving him in numerous disadvantageous states.
Roy Mustang
Using this moment for the weakness image is cruel, we apologize
While he is very proficient with Flame Alchemy as well as very tenacious, these strengths have served to Roy’s detriment. His determination, depending on circumstance, can make him viciously aggressive, as seen with his meeting with the Homunculi Envy. And though he has dealt with this issue thanks to the help of his comrades, his other weakness in the form of Mother Nature is still an issue. That being that if it were to be raining, Roy is completely unable to perform Flame Alchemy due to the inability to create a spark of flame, resulting in his effectiveness in battle being extremely neutered.
Summary
Zuko
Advantages
Faster regardless of speed argument used for Roy
Better combat training, skill, and experience
Better equipment
Better mobility
Theoretically speaking, if it were to be raining, Zuko could use his lightning redirection, while Roy wouldn’t be able to start any flames
Got to be with Uncle Iroh more than any other character did
Got political immunity faster
Disadvantages
Weaker
Vastly inferior range and area of effect
Less versatile overall
Firebending could become a detriment due to Flame Alchemy
Girlfriend was stolen by a character that isn’t even in the main cartoon, only the comics
Roy Mustang
Advantages
Significantly stronger
Superior range and area of effect
Alchemy in general provides more versatility than just Firebending
Flame Alchemy counters Firebending
Womanizer…
Disadvantages
Slower regardless of whether higher speed arguments are accepted or not
Inferior in training and close quarters combat
Less mobile
If it were raining, Roy would be unable to create a flame to use, while Zuko would be able to capitalize on his lightning redirection
…wait, why is that an advantage?
Verdicts
LandonTalksALot
So back in November when a server I’m in did a community event in which we debated a different matchup every day for a month, one matchup sparked interest in me and a few others to do a G1-type blog on it. That matchup… is not Zuko vs Roy, but this was one that I had in mind when I decided that I wanted to do it. The other matchup will be made into a blog, but considering it’s taking a bit to do and the fact that we’re waiting on more material to come out, I decided to put it on the backburner for now.
Instead, I decided to do Zuko vs Roy for my first blog, a matchup that I like a good amount between two characters I like a good amount. But the most important question is, who wins? Well, let me get this introductory speak out of the way and get right into it.
This matchup is interesting; for a while, it was pretty debatable, and both had their respective arguments for winning. Keyword being “was.” At the time of writing this, it’s a lot more leaning towards one character nowadays. What changed, you might ask? Well, before the nerfs, Zuko and Roy were pretty even in terms of strength, thanks to Roku and Kimblee’s feats respectively getting Large Town, with only a slight edge to Roy, but not enough to nail him the win. However, some community members ultimately decided that the original calculation for Roku stopping the lava had some flaws in it, and with some recalculations, that feat now gets only Small Town. Now the highest feat Zuko can scale to is the high-end of Toph holding up the library, which would put him solidly into Town, but ultimately a significant level below Roy.
Despite this, however, Zuko does still have some advantages that can give Roy some trouble, namely his superior speed. Even if you buy the feat of random Ishvalan monks moving in tandem with a Transmutation Circle that covered all of Amestris, monks who Roy should reasonably be superior to, that’s still lower than Zuko catching lightning from Ozai. At worst, it’s Mach 700+ vs Mach 12 via the Bradley feat, and at best it’s Mach 700+ vs Mach 111 via the feat I just mentioned. To make things even more difficult for Roy in this department, that feat might not even be usable, which the next verdict will go into in more detail. So essentially, we have a character who’s stronger by a good margin versus a character that’s faster by a good margin. So now we get to talk about the fun stuff; abilities and who can capitalize on those advantages.
Thanks to Zuko’s training and variety of different Firebending techniques, he would definitely gain the upper hand if he could get in close; while Roy has had military training, he hasn’t really shown to be as robust as Zuko is when it comes to close combat, mostly relying on his Flame Alchemy to get the job done. Despite that superior h2h skill Zuko has, Flame Alchemy is ultimately what helps compensate. Firebending certainly has more variety, but Flame Alchemy is just far more useful. With it, Roy counters anything Zuko can do to him when it comes to flames; by oxidizing the air, the flames Zuko produces can straight-up blow up in his face due to oxygen's density and concentration being altered. Not only that, but his fire attacks can spread as far as a courtyard, so while Zuko is faster, the large area of effect in which Roy can create his flames is gonna mean that he’s gonna catch him eventually. And as an extra point in Flame Alchemy's favor, Roy can spam it with as simple as a snap as seen in his "fight" with Envy, while Firebending requires much more focus and concentration on Zuko's part, something that he's gonna have a hard time doing when the dude he's fighting is making explosions everywhere.
But okay, you might be asking, that speed gap is pretty big, and since Zuko has swords, couldn’t he just blitz Roy and finish the job right there? Well, for one, Roy has had experience fighting sword-wielders in the past such as Bradley, and was even able to survive being stabbed by his swords, so on the off-chance Zuko tries to go for it, if anything, it’ll give Roy enough time to snap and set him ablaze since he’s so close. Notice how I said “on the off-chance” there, because it’s more in-character for Zuko to go for Firebending first rather than his swords. The only way that I could see Zuko going for it is if he lasts long enough to realize Roy relies on long-range combat. However, because Roy is so much stronger, if Zuko gets caught in any of his explosions, he’s either gonna die or be terribly injured, and thus susceptible to an explosion that will definitely kill him.
And while we did mention a very specific advantage Zuko has over Roy, it’s far too specific and situational for Zuko to count it towards a win. Not only would Roy already kill Zuko before the storm happens, but Roy can still use regular Alchemy despite this, and the odds of Zuko randomly getting struck by lightning mid-fight, is extremely unlikely. So while it would be a cool animation moment, it’s not gonna nab Zuko the win for how rare it would realistically be.
In conclusion, Zuko’s speed and better training are definitely gonna give Roy some trouble, but he can overcome it with his superior strength, counters to Zuko’s primary ability and a wider range of effect in which his flames can spread. While I did refute against Zuko being able to kill Roy with his swords and the whole raining situation, I do think they can give Zuko the win every once in a while, but Roy’s wincons are a lot more straightforward and realistic.
The Prince of the Fire Nation is gonna fight hard for his honor, but Roy Mustang has the tools needed to snuff out his flame. Now that’s rough, buddy.
Blue Igneous
DB have more FMA episodes I beg
This is my second time helping out on a fan blog after TMK’s Bardock Minato blog, and my 2nd Verdict as well for one of these. Really enjoy Zuko VS Roy as a match up, so I definitely wanted to be on this one when Landon announced it. You can make a lot of cool scenes with all the fire the two can shoot around the place, have some close quarter combat bits here and there, some nice interactions with Roy using traditional transmutation, etc, there’s a lot of creative ways you can show the advantages of the two in the fight. And I wanna make that clear, the two do have a lot of advantages that makes this debate more complex than what I thought of something like Bardock VS Minato. Even if I still feel the outcome to this fight is decently clear cut.
Thus, I’ll be splitting my Verdict into sections just like how the official G1 Blog does for its verdicts, instead of just going on a long ramble like I did for Bardock Minato. Those sections being Stats, Arsenal and Abilities, Tertiary Factors, and a Conclusion to wrap things up. With all that elaboration out of the way, let’s get started.
Stats
To start off with speed, Zuko has the clear edge here. Lightning timing against his Father Ozai clocks in at Mach 756.94, which is way higher than anything Roy can scale to. Roy is at a major disadvantage in comparison. The best speed feats for him are either Bradley blitzing numerous soldiers, clocking in at Mach 12.94, or some Ishvalan warrior monks moving in tandem with Transmutation Circle energy that was able to cover all of Amestris. The former Roy would downscale from considering Bradley, who did the feat, is considered superior to him and numerous other characters in speed, and the latter has proven to be a very controversial feat. Even with upscaling from it though, Zuko would still be upscaling his own lightning feat as it was done before his adult years. This puts the speed gap at exactly either 58.4961360124 or 6.81927927928 times in Zuko’s favor. No matter what, Roy is getting blitzed. Because of that I'm not going to bother debating about the Amestris Circle in my key argument, rather just make a small tangent discussing it later on that is not necessary to read.
Power is a different story however. Zuko’s best AP feats would be scaling to characters like Aang, who has an early series feat of stopping a lava flow that gets 1.3 kilotons, or scaling to Toph and her 18.1 kiloton feat of keeping up Wan Shi Tong’s library. Both of which pale in comparison to Roy scaling to Edward surviving being right next to Father releasing a burst of power that split clouds. With this feat being worth 377.18 kilotons of TNT. This would make Zuko at best 20.8386740331 weaker, a gap that would allow Roy to basically one shot Zuko with a single snap.
So in conclusion, Zuko is definitely faster to the point where he is blitzing Roy, while Roy can absolutely endure Zuko’s attacks and strike back with lethal force. Before moving on to Arsenal and Abilities however, I would like to cover some basic questions:
Why is lightning bending being treated as fast as traditional lightning for the Mach 756 calc?
As for why this feat for Zuko is acceptable, the lightning in Avatar should logically be similar to natural lightning. The whole point of bending is controlling the natural elements after all. Plus Iroh has a lightning catching feat in ATLA Season 1 that supports lightning speed reactions in general. So yeah, feat should count.
Why would characters like Roy be able to scale to Father’s cloud split? Isn’t he consistently far above the entire cast?
While Father is definitely a far gap above the majority of FMA characters after absorbing God, let alone having the millions of souls in Amestris absorbed as well, his more elder form that we see at the midpoint of the series is far less unreachable in terms of scaling. Edward directly survives being at Father’s release of power, but what is also notable is characters scaling to people such as Hohenheim. Hohenheim is treated as an equal to Father’s more elder form throughout the majority of the series, consistent with the fact he is empowered by an equal amount of souls. He also is directly able to match Father’s elder form in a fight during the final arc of FMA. Hohenheim’s scaling allows other characters to scale to Father’s elder state without much issue. For instance Edward can directly deck him in the face and therefore scales gg.
My goat fr
Ok being serious, while Hohenheim’s alchemy is still treated as superior to other characters, as seen with him being able to contain Pride in a giant stone prison being seen as incredible by people like Edward, Hohenheim is still shown to be comparable to on other occasions. For instance, him and Alphose endure similar damage from one of Father’s big “fuck off” beam attacks in the final battle of the series. With Hohenheim only fairing better thanks to his regenerative abilities. Said regeneration is also why he could block another “fuck off” beam from Father earlier in the final fight whereas Edward and Alphonse could not. The factor was regeneration, not necessarily a massive advantage in durability.
In conclusion, would it be through comparing to Edward or to Hohenheim, Roy logically should be able to compare to the 377 kiloton feat and thus have a significant power advantage over Zuko.
What’s the deal with the Amestris circle feat? Why is it valid or not valid?
Personally I do not see this feat as needed for my conclusion. The other advantages present are still significant enough to confirm said conclusion. But, since I wanted to talk about this feat anyways I'm going to talk about it anyways. Again, this feat isn’t important for my conclusion, so if you want, you can just skip to the Arsenal and Abilities section of my verdict. But if you want to waste your time with irrelevant numbers, keep reading here.
First off, it is important to understand specifically what is being calculated here.
What the calc does is calculate the speed the energy shown is moving at when it is traveling the entire world, in the shot where the POV is in space.
The result of how fast the energy is moving here, is the speed assumed for the energy in the building covered by the green line.
Again, to specify, the green line. NOT the energy shown in the first shot that is initially entering the building. What the calc then does is compare the distance moved by the man covered by the red line in the first image, specifically the distance he moves going from the first to the second image, to the distance the energy moves in the second image. SPECIFICALLY the energy covered by the green line, saying that again. The result of this comparison is that the man moved at Mach 111. This feat is done by a very experienced Ishvalan warrior monk, so it’s not like you can say it was just done by some random civilian and is thus an outlier or something like that.
The key argument against this calculation is that the energy accelerated by the time we get to the space POV shot in comparison to how fast the energy was when leaving the building. This is flawed however. There is no reason in context for the energy to have gotten faster AFTER already leaving the building. The energy already gets noticeably faster upon touching the extra circle the Ishvalans had set up, in comparison to how fast the energy was when entering the building originally. There’s no extra reason to assume the energy got even faster after already touching this extra circle.
The only other reason to assume the energy got faster is simply because it appears faster in the space POV shot then it does when it is leaving the house. This logic contradicts a lot of other fictional feats however. It’s like saying Star Platinum from JoJo is not light speed, despite it being stated to be such, because we can still see Star Platinum move on screen even when it is supposingly at its top speed. This logic also applies to us being able to see light speed lasers in movement in video games or other anime, as well as even Ozai’s lightning against Zuko. Said lightning should be moving at over Mach 200, that’s way too fast for any human eye to see in motion, yet we can see it in motion.
And that is my take on this stupid circle feat. I can understand not buying the feat due to the previously mentioned issues, though. But again, as I said: this feat is not crucial to determining who wins this match up in my eyes. Zuko is still blitzing Roy when it comes to speed anyways even with the feat included. So feel free to ignore basically everything I just said and move on to the next part of the Verdict.
Arsenal and Abilities
In terms of actual equipment, Zuko has a clear edge. That edge stemming from the fact he actually has equipment here in the form of his two swords. Roy in contrast only has his transmutation gloves, which serve more to help with his alchemy anyways than to serve as their own tool in battle. So, Zuko has the edge when it comes to arsenal.
Abilities are a VERY different story however. While Zuko’s fire bending is very versatile for both offense and defense, Roy’s flame alchemy is more useful here. Yes, fire bending does have a definite defensive advantage, it’s not like flame alchemy can make fire walls or anything. But offense is the best defense is a principle that flame alchemy displays here as it is able to completely overpower Zuko. It is far more spammable and instantly deadly than fire bending is, being able to be released at full force with mere snaps and being able to target vital areas immediately. Roy choosing where to direct the spark he creates with flame alchemy is also helpful for quickly getting around any defenses Zuko can put in Roy’s way.
Flame alchemy has an extra advantage however that Roy is not even likely to consider himself in the fight. See, the way flame alchemy works is not by simply creating fire out of nowhere like fire bending does. It specifically ignites the air so Roy can guide his spark to hit his target. Oxygen’s density and concentration are altered for this purpose. This of course, makes the oxygen in the area susceptible to combustion rather easily. Lighting even a small lighter would cause an expansion of fire. So if Zuko were to release a large blast of flames, simply put he’s going to cause an explosion in his face. Now obviously this explosion will be caused by his own fire power, and thus it is not going to one shot him or anything. Heck, in his fight with Azula at the ancient airbender temple, he took a large explosion of his and Azula’s fire to the face and sustained no significant damage. However he was stunned for a short period of time, being left vulnerable. Considering Roy’s large advantage in attack potency, Zuko being left vulnerable to even a single blow is practically a death sentence.
And to top everything off, while fire bending is better defensively than flame alchemy, Roy still has better defenses overall in the form of traditional alchemy. During the final fight with Father after he absorbed God, Roy was able to make a large stone wall to block his redirected flames. Keep in mind, these are his own flames shot back at him. Flames much stronger than Zuko’s. Thus there is no doubt Roy is capable of making something durable enough to block any fire based offense Zuko can produce. If the altered oxygen did not get in the way of that burning offense already.
In conclusion, Roy has both the offensive and defensive tools needed to completely counter Zuko’s ranged attacks. And considering the offensive use of his flames, it’s unlikely Roy will allow Zuko to be able to get in close reliably to utilize his swords.
Tertiary Factors
Zuko does have a noticeable edge in experience and combat training over Roy. While Roy most likely received elite military training while in service of the Amestris military, Zuko was trained in combat from a young age, continuing to progress even to his more elder years as we see in Legend of Korra. Considering his other showings of dominating well trained fighters like Sokka, there is no doubt that Zuko has the advantage at close quarters and when it comes to overall combat skill.
Roy has a far greater advantage however in the form of his better range and area of effect. To make this clear, let’s put forward some examples. Zuko’s best showing of area of effect was in his final fight against Azula, where he matched her covering the entire palace courtyard in her flames.
This is a very impressive feat, but Roy has it beat by a significant margin. As previously mentioned in Roy’s power section, his flames could cover nearly the entire courtyard of Amestris’ palace. To the point where people near the eastern and western walls had to duck to avoid any contact with the flames. For reference, here’s what the Amestris courtyard looks like.
Using ⅔ of the courtyard as an estimate, we can get a lowball of how much distance Roy covered with his flames. The result? A clear advantage for Roy in terms of range. It is also worth noting that Zuko and Azula were amplified by Sozin’s comet during their final fight, meaning that Roy’s advantage is likely even greater in this department.
Lastly, it is worth mentioning Zuko does have a good advantage when it comes to mobility. Since he is capable of using fire bending to propel his movements around the battlefield. This advantage is not too significant however due to Roy’s previously mentioned range making it unlikely Zuko could escape Roy’s largest attacks.
Conclusion
Good job Mlee
While Zuko does have clear advantages in speed, mobility, experience, and skill, Roy’s advantages are simply much more significant here. His large advantage in power means he likely can take Zuko out with a single powerful hit from his flame alchemy, and his giant area of effect will only ensure Zuko gets hit. Zuko being able to avoid Roy’s attacks is even less likely due to his fire bending being doomed to blow up in his face due to how flame alchemy works. All of these key advantages mean it is very unlikely the prince of the Fire Nation can take the win here against the flame alchemist.
While Zuko will certainly give it his all, Roy’s literally superior fire power and endurance is too tough a wall for Zuko to burn through. That loss Must sting, as Roy is going to make it irohttating. The winner is Roy Mustang
And that’s that. Thanks to Landon for having me on this blog, it was a lot of fun getting to talk about such a good match up. I also hope to show up to help for future blogs.
Caden_da_Monkay
art by @mangomom
Hey y’all caden here and I just accidentally deleted my entire verdict, so we’re gonna get right to the point cuz I’m really tired now, Zuko vs Roy is a really cool matchup and one of my favorites, so I’m happy and thankful for Landon letting me on. Now let’s get into who kills the other. First off stats. Zuko's standing at 18 kilotons from scaling to the library sinking feat and Mach 757 from catching lightning. Meanwhile Roy has 377 kilotons from scaling to the father cloud feat and Mach 13 from scaling to King Bradley. This leaves Roy being 20 times stronger, but Zuko being 58 times faster. So Roy is AP stomping while Zuko is hard blitzing. Granted Roy could potentially close the speed gap a bit by using the legendary John Ishval feat, however that feat is very weird to use because a random guy in a back alley having the easily highest speed feat in the series definitely looks weird, it’s much more likely that John Ishval is secretly a god among men then nobody scales to. Even if Roy scaled to the feat he’d still be getting blitzed regardless so a bit of a null point. This leaves us with Roy being a lot stronger and more durable, while Zuko is a lot faster. As for abilities, both have their fair share of advantages. Zuko’s firebending is a lot simpler to use along with having less weaknesses, unlike flame alchemy it doesn’t need a source and can’t be halted by tertiary factors aka wet stuff, even if these weaknesses are unlikely to come up it’s still good to have less. Roy’s flame alchemy on the other hand is more versatile in its functions and gives him better control over his flames, this better control gives him a larger range, better precision, and obviously just better control on how his flames act. Another interesting thing to note is the fact that both can likely control the other's attacks, Zuko can simply bend the flames that Roy produces, while Roy can control Zuko's flames by manipulating the oxygen around them. This raises the question of who would have the superior control? And in that area Roy would have the advantage. While both can manipulate each other's flames in similar manners, controlling the direction, power, or potentially just turning them off, Roy gets the advantage in his superior control as mentioned earlier. His alchemy is far more precise which would give him that slight edge he needs to have better control. Then there’s also their other back up options for when fire ain’t enough, in which Roy also has the advantage. Lightning bending is nice and all but it’s very moment specific and unlikely to be useful, especially compared to Roy’s normal alchemy that allows him to do way more useful stuff. So overall Roy holds more advantages when it comes to abilities. Finally as for their combat skill, it’s pretty clear who’s superior in it. Roy’s no slouch when it comes to combat, he’s thrown his fair share of hands even against trained super soldiers and has standard military training. But against a highly skilled martial artist and swordsman like Zuko, he’s gonna be struggling a lot if this goes close quarters. They are also both likely around even in intelligence, so neither is going to be outsmarting the other. All in all both characters have a good amount of advantages and this could easily be a very debatable matchup…… if Roy wasn’t AP stomping. Zuko's far superior speed, skill, and domination in close quarters nearly has the potential to net him a win, but it’s the equivalent of a martial artist trying to take on a roided up silverback gorilla. The AP stomp isn’t the only thing in Roys favor though, his superior abilities allow him a far greater control over the battlefield via better range and control than Zuko, and his hits would be a lot deadlier given their precision. There’s also his normal alchemy which gives him a level of versatility Zuko can’t compete with. Roy’s advantages overall just outclass Zuko’s enough to get him the win. It was almost a close match, but Zuko simply lacked the firepower to keep up. The winner is Roy Mustang.
Results
Team Zuko (0) - That's rough, buddy.
Team Roy (5) - LandonTalksALot, Blue Igneous, Caden_da_Monkay, Klondike Bar, Ashuto
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